Wow, John, the vulnerability in this is so beautiful. I’m really grateful to have been reading your writing for some time now, and to know your generous spirit online in this space. There are so many men I want to send this to (and the other posts in this series as well), and the heartbreaking thing is that I don’t know how most of them would receive it. But you putting your story and understanding out there helps probably more people find their way to doing the same.
And yes to the dominionism! I know we share a lot of thoughts on this. I was just yesterday thinking of Abdullah Ocallan’s book “The Sociology of Freedom” and how he traces all of this (especially reiterating oppression of women many times) back to serious power hoarding beginning 5,000 years ago.
Also adding The Sociology of Freedom onto my TBR, that sounds very interesting (and right up my alley!) Thank you for spending you time with John's powerful words, Antonia.
I am hoping John's words are found by exactly who needs them--but I too want to send to so many and fear what the response may be.
Truly honored to be able to learn alongside both of you in this wonderful world. ❤️
So grateful to you for the work you do, and expanding this space for the truly necessary conversations!
Abdullah Ocallan founded the Kurdish Freedom Party and has been in a Turkish prison since I think 1999? I might have that wrong. Most of it has been in solitary confinement. The fact that he produces the work he does is … I don’t have words for it.
He really gets into it. I was thinking about writing about it again because there’s always a tendency to think the problems we’re facing are far more recent than that, but it’s clear they go back thousands of years, not just hundreds.
Vulnerability hangovers! Coffee, a walk, some time with the ocean maybe, reminders that everything has cycles and we are miraculous but small forces in the universe.
Yesterday, I enjoyed what has become an annual birthday celebration with two dear women friends. One, in her 80s, spoke of her husband's new men's group, 6-12 participants with whom he is newly connected after a recent move to a retirement community. They discussed women heroes from their own generations. Many had trouble naming any other than their mothers; their role models were all men. Rome wasn't built in a day. We have lifetimes of social conditioning to undo. I find hope in collaborations like these, and in learning what I suspect you all already know: That as recently as 5,000 years ago (recent is relative, yes?) there is evidence that we lived in villages without oppressive social hierarchies, without kings, armies and the like. Perhaps it's naive to think so, but I want to believe if we did it then we can do it again. Thank you for your work in this space. Much appreciated!
My men's hiking group is similar. Conversation has to be traditionally male. Putting down wives, etc., it's awful. I smile and say nothing when the conversation drifts that way. But several of my male friends here subscribe to my blog. One let me know in a personal email how much he appreciated this post:
Loved the latest posting.
Been able to piece together your "story" through the various publishings.
❤️
I can relate.
But of course, in public he's the macho man with the big truck.
I really love this book. And I’m going to be starting another reading group with Threadable shortly reading the first chapters of books I’ve loved or learned from—this one is on the list.
For starters, by believing we can, followed by actively seeking to cultivate the ideas and actions needed to change the paradigm, which you’re doing here. Families, neighborhoods, schools, communities… We might not ever see that our efforts have mattered, but they do and they will.
This is I think one of THE most important points. Every now and then on my newsletter—which is about these longer histories and deeper structures—I bring this up, that in order to craft a world where life thrives, we have to be able to imagine it’s possible. Changing paradigms is long, hard, and often lonely work. Finding one anothe rin it helps.
John I throughly enjoyed deconstructing patriarchy and what is meant to you performing it particularly. It is so important to embrace with tenderness, like you did here, all the wounds accumulated being a misfit at playing typical gender roles. It is rare to see men from your generation to take ownership of the past and acknowledging the system that conditioned them. I am so grateful to have found you John. Thank you for choosing to share your story with us.
I was recently talking with my mom about this very idea, how rare it is for John's generation to be so open, so frank, with such topics. Truly honored to be able to share out John's impactful words--my goodness! Grateful for you both and the paradigms gently offered. ❤️
I second it, and this lack of vulnerability and openness among men from John’s generation is actually relevant across cultures, and the fact that it is creating so much pain and wars across geographies right now. I am so grateful to you both for this collaboration, it is such a eye opener.
I lucked into John Lovie's "Mostly Water" newsletter through some other connection I no longer recall (you know how Substack is!) For one thing, he lives on an island in the Pacific Northwest, and it's always good to hear from a fellow rural-dwelling Northwesterner. I've continued to follow his brilliant posts, and he's been kind enough to respond to some of my newsletter fiction and essays. I really appreciate this searching profile here because now I know what it took him to reach the wisdom he demonstrates now, coupled with the brilliance he already had. Thanks so much for posting this!
Thank you for spending you time here and with John's incredible words, I feel honored he felt safe enough to share them here! It truly is so informing on how he approaches the topics he writes about--words saturated with empathy. I feel this "lucked into" bit very much. Substack has put the most incredible humans in my path and I am very thankful for that.
Today I lucked into Forest Service fire incident reports so I can finally get specific data about the Jupiter Fire. The "flee" alerts for my friends whose homes and farms are at the edge of the fire has been changed to Level 1, high alert but not as bad as it was. 365 firefighters are on the blaze, now camped out at the Boy Scout Camp next door to me. Their food truck finally arrived so the enormous effort put out by citizens to feed the crews - talking about catastrophe bringing communities together no matter what - is mitigated. And the ash and debris falling from the sky all around me is finally fairly clear.
Thank you John for your warm and compassionate wisdom. If there is one thing that might help open the stranglehold patriarchy and masculinity have on men, its self-compassion.
As opposed to the more common human tendency to self-righteous self-justification & self-indulgence.
Yes! In my experience the most “masculine” men are holding themselves so rigidly to an impossible standard - and when you can’t extend compassion to yourself, how can you expect to share it with others or the planet??
Finally making time to read this and I’m so very touched by the friendship you found and lost later in life. What a tribute to her ❤️🩹 thank you for your words lighting a way, John.
Thanks for reading, Lindsey. I remember you've just had a birthday. My friend didn't quite make that one. You've got me thinking I should write a proper tribute.
John, I wanted to read this earlier and found time to sit with it today and I am so grateful to know you, your work, your generous spirit, and your honesty in all that you do. It is a balm to know that there are so many of us feeling so lost in all the structures we’re supposed to follow. Love that you found a way to seek out more from life—it’s inspirational as so many of us try to disengage from all that we’ve been taught under patriarchy. 🕯️ 💜
Wow, John, the vulnerability in this is so beautiful. I’m really grateful to have been reading your writing for some time now, and to know your generous spirit online in this space. There are so many men I want to send this to (and the other posts in this series as well), and the heartbreaking thing is that I don’t know how most of them would receive it. But you putting your story and understanding out there helps probably more people find their way to doing the same.
And yes to the dominionism! I know we share a lot of thoughts on this. I was just yesterday thinking of Abdullah Ocallan’s book “The Sociology of Freedom” and how he traces all of this (especially reiterating oppression of women many times) back to serious power hoarding beginning 5,000 years ago.
Grateful for you.
Also adding The Sociology of Freedom onto my TBR, that sounds very interesting (and right up my alley!) Thank you for spending you time with John's powerful words, Antonia.
I am hoping John's words are found by exactly who needs them--but I too want to send to so many and fear what the response may be.
Truly honored to be able to learn alongside both of you in this wonderful world. ❤️
So grateful to you for the work you do, and expanding this space for the truly necessary conversations!
Abdullah Ocallan founded the Kurdish Freedom Party and has been in a Turkish prison since I think 1999? I might have that wrong. Most of it has been in solitary confinement. The fact that he produces the work he does is … I don’t have words for it.
Thank you, Nia. I'm hoping coffee works for a vulnerability hangover.
"Power hoarding." What a perfect phrase. The dark side of the axial age. That's another book on the TBR list! 📚📚📚📖
He really gets into it. I was thinking about writing about it again because there’s always a tendency to think the problems we’re facing are far more recent than that, but it’s clear they go back thousands of years, not just hundreds.
Vulnerability hangovers! Coffee, a walk, some time with the ocean maybe, reminders that everything has cycles and we are miraculous but small forces in the universe.
Coffee ✅, Walk, about to go ✅, Ocean, I see it! ✅All the rest you wrote ✅
Enjoy your walk!!
Yesterday, I enjoyed what has become an annual birthday celebration with two dear women friends. One, in her 80s, spoke of her husband's new men's group, 6-12 participants with whom he is newly connected after a recent move to a retirement community. They discussed women heroes from their own generations. Many had trouble naming any other than their mothers; their role models were all men. Rome wasn't built in a day. We have lifetimes of social conditioning to undo. I find hope in collaborations like these, and in learning what I suspect you all already know: That as recently as 5,000 years ago (recent is relative, yes?) there is evidence that we lived in villages without oppressive social hierarchies, without kings, armies and the like. Perhaps it's naive to think so, but I want to believe if we did it then we can do it again. Thank you for your work in this space. Much appreciated!
https://www.ted.com/talks/david_wengrow_a_new_understanding_of_human_history_and_the_roots_of_inequality
My men's hiking group is similar. Conversation has to be traditionally male. Putting down wives, etc., it's awful. I smile and say nothing when the conversation drifts that way. But several of my male friends here subscribe to my blog. One let me know in a personal email how much he appreciated this post:
Loved the latest posting.
Been able to piece together your "story" through the various publishings.
❤️
I can relate.
But of course, in public he's the macho man with the big truck.
It's so, so sad. Men are so lost.
Hopefully, John, we can help guide the masses back onto a path worth following.
Thanks Elizabeth. I've had Wengrow & Graeber's book on my TBR list for a while. It's just such a big Iist!
It's a fascinating topic. How do we get there from here?
I really love this book. And I’m going to be starting another reading group with Threadable shortly reading the first chapters of books I’ve loved or learned from—this one is on the list.
Oh cool!
For starters, by believing we can, followed by actively seeking to cultivate the ideas and actions needed to change the paradigm, which you’re doing here. Families, neighborhoods, schools, communities… We might not ever see that our efforts have mattered, but they do and they will.
We're planting sequoias.
https://allpoetry.com/poem/12622463-Manifesto--The-Mad-Farmer-Liberation-Front-by-Wendell-Berry
This is I think one of THE most important points. Every now and then on my newsletter—which is about these longer histories and deeper structures—I bring this up, that in order to craft a world where life thrives, we have to be able to imagine it’s possible. Changing paradigms is long, hard, and often lonely work. Finding one anothe rin it helps.
(And apologies to both of you, something went wrong when I was posting my comment and it decided to triple itself! Deleting the others.)
Substack, of course, did not supply me with the notifications for such comments, so no worries! 😉
John I throughly enjoyed deconstructing patriarchy and what is meant to you performing it particularly. It is so important to embrace with tenderness, like you did here, all the wounds accumulated being a misfit at playing typical gender roles. It is rare to see men from your generation to take ownership of the past and acknowledging the system that conditioned them. I am so grateful to have found you John. Thank you for choosing to share your story with us.
I was recently talking with my mom about this very idea, how rare it is for John's generation to be so open, so frank, with such topics. Truly honored to be able to share out John's impactful words--my goodness! Grateful for you both and the paradigms gently offered. ❤️
I second it, and this lack of vulnerability and openness among men from John’s generation is actually relevant across cultures, and the fact that it is creating so much pain and wars across geographies right now. I am so grateful to you both for this collaboration, it is such a eye opener.
Thank you, Swarna, for your role in helping me understand the universality of patriarchy's harms.
Absolutely love this. We are all just walking each other home. 💜
I lucked into John Lovie's "Mostly Water" newsletter through some other connection I no longer recall (you know how Substack is!) For one thing, he lives on an island in the Pacific Northwest, and it's always good to hear from a fellow rural-dwelling Northwesterner. I've continued to follow his brilliant posts, and he's been kind enough to respond to some of my newsletter fiction and essays. I really appreciate this searching profile here because now I know what it took him to reach the wisdom he demonstrates now, coupled with the brilliance he already had. Thanks so much for posting this!
Thank you for spending you time here and with John's incredible words, I feel honored he felt safe enough to share them here! It truly is so informing on how he approaches the topics he writes about--words saturated with empathy. I feel this "lucked into" bit very much. Substack has put the most incredible humans in my path and I am very thankful for that.
“Lucked into…” is how I feel about your newsletter too, Kirie. I think we met in someone else’s comment thread?
Anyway, thank you so much!
I hope the shift in weather is helping the firefighters bring the Jupiter fire under control.
Today I lucked into Forest Service fire incident reports so I can finally get specific data about the Jupiter Fire. The "flee" alerts for my friends whose homes and farms are at the edge of the fire has been changed to Level 1, high alert but not as bad as it was. 365 firefighters are on the blaze, now camped out at the Boy Scout Camp next door to me. Their food truck finally arrived so the enormous effort put out by citizens to feed the crews - talking about catastrophe bringing communities together no matter what - is mitigated. And the ash and debris falling from the sky all around me is finally fairly clear.
I'm relieved to hear that, Kirie. It looks like the weather will be on their side for a few days at least.
Thank you John for your warm and compassionate wisdom. If there is one thing that might help open the stranglehold patriarchy and masculinity have on men, its self-compassion.
As opposed to the more common human tendency to self-righteous self-justification & self-indulgence.
Thank you for adding this, Michelle. You are so right. Self-compassion is not just needed, but necessary. ❤️❤️
Thank you, Michelle
Yes! In my experience the most “masculine” men are holding themselves so rigidly to an impossible standard - and when you can’t extend compassion to yourself, how can you expect to share it with others or the planet??
Yes, it's so sad,
Finally making time to read this and I’m so very touched by the friendship you found and lost later in life. What a tribute to her ❤️🩹 thank you for your words lighting a way, John.
Thanks for reading, Lindsey. I remember you've just had a birthday. My friend didn't quite make that one. You've got me thinking I should write a proper tribute.
John, I wanted to read this earlier and found time to sit with it today and I am so grateful to know you, your work, your generous spirit, and your honesty in all that you do. It is a balm to know that there are so many of us feeling so lost in all the structures we’re supposed to follow. Love that you found a way to seek out more from life—it’s inspirational as so many of us try to disengage from all that we’ve been taught under patriarchy. 🕯️ 💜
Freya, thank you so much for your reading attention and your thoughtful comment. I'm grateful to know you too.
Beautifully put John!
Thank you Jamal